Interview with Ab Rogers from Ab Rogers Design: Designing the Legends display

Lorna Allan, the Art director on the Legends project, interviews Ab Rogers about his involvement in the project and his career path. Photo credit: Wang Wei

L.A. We are here today with Ab Rogers from Ab Rogers design, and we’re going to talk about the Legends project. Hi, Ab, good morning. So just going to kick off our first question: so how did you connect with Zoë and the Legends project?

A.R. Hi, Good morning

L.A. I was going to ask: it’s quite a big display of images! So I was going to ask about; what are the first steps that you would take, or, what are the first steps involved when you’re deciding to display a collection of photographic images?

A.R. Well, I think our job as a designer is really it to interpret the work. Zoë is really the artist and has this incredible material, and has a very clear idea of the role she wants it to play. And as the designers of the exhibition, we need to work a mechanism to celebrate that work and to put it in the limelight. And whether we’re telling a story of celebration of cancer patients and their lives, or we’re telling the story of Legends, we need to create an appropriate environment. So we need to take the work that we’re displaying, the incredible photographs, in the case of Legends, and we need to look at the space that we’re displaying in, and how can we make the maximum impact of this display. So we work very closely between Zoë, the printers, the fabricators, to create a design that really sings the song of the material.

L.A. Amazing, I was going to go on to that, because I was going to ask a little bit about the space, because you were working within an existing space. So could you talk a little bit about how you worked with those parameters to make it such an immersive and personal space for both the work and for the visitors that were going to be coming to see the display.

A.R. I mean, the interesting thing with the legendary Legends is the first time we did a full exhibition back in 2019, just before COVID, that nobody ever saw, and that was in a very different space. It had a very different design that was more like a kind of parlor hanging with larger images. And then when we got the education space we had for the longer lasting show, when we re-hung it now with increased portraits, we needed to fit a lot of images into quite a small space. And the space was not always used as a gallery, it was more a kind of educational space. So we needed to create a mechanism which separated, the installation from this space and really held this very beautiful material, and a lot of it, like 80 photographs in a context that the environment around it was not distracting from the photographs itself. So we were quite keen to use light boxes because it gives a very, very sharp edge to the material. And Zoë was really keen on the light boxes. So then it was creating this circular frame that holds the photographs, removing the distraction of the environment. Corners are always a nightmare to light, so a circle is great to wrap around. And that circle talks to the screen, and the screen can show these incredible photographs, that kind of vast images of very, very high resolution. And then we go downstairs, and they have a kind of different hand, because downstairs is a bit more moody. It’s as you go into the bar, it’s a very it’s a very found space. So there it becomes not about light boxes, but large dibond panels very well lit from particular spaces, and it’s more about the arrangement and the placement of those spaces. And then we need to create a continuity as you pass through wayfinding from the main installation in the education space down to down to the bar.

L.A. Which worked amazingly! So you touched on it just then, I was thinking about one of the main challenges, because there were so many pictures to work with. What do you think was one of the main challenges of that for you guys?

A.R. Well, the main challenge always when you’re showing work on volume is how you can make the image materials sing. You know, everyone of those photographs is an amazing artwork in itself. So you don’t want anyone to be lost. Now some Legends are greater celebrities than others, but you don’t want the material to dominate over each other. So it’s really about how we can create that balance of display so everyone feels shown and everyone feels seen and everyone feels worthy of the incredible work that Zoë has done.

L.A. Which I think you totally achieved that within this space. And I think by using those light boxes there was that beautiful intimacy between each and every individual one, and then the hierarchy as well, it just works very beautifully.

A.R. Intimacy is a really important word for us, because it’s how can you be intimate with 80 photographs? So how can we create a display which where you can be intimate with every person?

L.A. That leads me on to the next question I wanted to ask. So ARD worked really closely with Zoë and the National Portrait Gallery on this display. How do you think that kind of collaboration was really important to achieving the results that we got in the end, to having the intimacy and the care to how everything was displayed?

A.R. Well, I think what I really love about the job of exhibition designing is that you form these collaborations, and as the more you get to know the collaborators and the ones that you like to work with more, of course, and Zoë, we’ve worked with a lot. We’ve become very close. And yourself Lorna, knowing how each other works and the roles that they play. So it becomes quite family, like in a way, and you feel that. And then, of course, they’re great curators at the NPG, we bought in great fabricators and very good technical support with ADI. It was a collection of really talented people. But the main thing is, is the knowing each other’s work and how we work, that we had between you Lorna, and Zoë, and I think that’s a really magical moment, you know, and Rina has worked with you both always, as has Yosuke, so it becomes a lot of pre knowledge.

L.A. Yeah, I must say, it was a very pleasurable job to work on, it was really fun.

A.R. So we all understand the standards that we need to work from. I think that’s a very important part to know.

L.A. Yeah, I think everyone worked pretty, pretty hard on this one!

A.R. And when we come to display the circle that we like, it’s about, how can we do that so it works, because it’s very easy to do things in the CGI, but it’s making sure that the material is seamless and exquisite, which I think we managed to do.

L.A. 100% Yeah. And so what would you say was one of the main takeaways that you took away from working with Zoë and her team and the National Portrait Gallery, what was the overall, arching takeaway for you?

A.R. I think the definite takeaway was the importance of how we can transform these different spaces, to make them very unique and special to the material that we’re showing. I think the level of rigor and detail that you and Zoë go into in the production of the images, which we have to balance in the installation of those images, and how important that is, and how important it is to have this kind of very unique soundscape.
The only other thing I would add to that is design is not just visual, design is atmospheric. So sound is a really important part of the design of an exhibition, both how it sounds from an acoustic perspective and the soundscapes that we can play in it and the role that the voice has when they go inside that. So we need to think about all of these things, texture, sound, light, color, and how they hold together. And of course, color is an important part of the exhibition, using color to deconstruct the secondary spaces.

L.A. Thanks Ab so, I’m going to ask a little bit about you and your career now. So I wanted to ask, How long have you been working as a creative director, and what was your route into design and architecture?

A.R. Well, I set up my studio originally with Shona Kitchen in 97’ so where are we now? So that’s 27 years more or less, no 28 years, It’s not a small amount of time. I left school very young, like at 16, with 2 O levels, and I became a carpenter/ cabinet maker. I come from a very design rich family, I’ve been marinated in design to an extent. And through making, I started to design and through that making design, I applied to the Royal College in 95’ with a portfolio of stuff that I’d made and, and the rest is history, in a way. And at the Royal College I met Shona and we set up a studio. I got a teaching job, coming straight out as I was a slightly mature student.

L.A. Did you ever have any difficulties getting into, into the sort of career that you now hold?

A.R. I think that’s what was important is that I had a half time job teaching design and Shona had a half time job researching at the RCA, so we could be experimental in the studio. So all our early projects were pretty much unpaid until 2000 I think, which meant we could build up a portfolio of the things that we really believed in, you know, funny exhibits, for exhibitions, installation, we were working more as an artist than a designer. Now, I think it’s imperative, and I will fight for any person that we commission, for people to be paid. But there are times when you haven’t got work, and there’s opportunities for profile when you have to make that decision. And I think now, well, it probably hasn’t changed that much. So I think really striving for what you believe in.

And then we started to get retail projects. Our first project was designing Topshops, windows in 2000 which was really our first proper commercial project. And we created and added hundreds of kinetics to hundreds of items for clothing. It’s was called the Invasion of the accessories. We dismantled the mannequins we made, this really kind of brave installation on Oxford circus. And handbags would talk, belts would snake around. And each day, maybe one or two motors would stop working. No computers involved with incredibly complicated primitive electronics.

And from there, you know, then we started. I think, coming out of the Royal College of Art, we built a shop, which was our first commission, looking at the London, Beach store or Portobello Road. And we built a skateboard, 270 degree curb going straight into it, which was amazing, building this curve. But our budget was 12,000 pounds for construction, including fees. So there were kind of no fees, so we were just constructing and we put all our money into trying to make things stand out, and retail design at that point was in its inventory, Eva Jiřičná was doing amazing things, and Adam Brinkworth was just starting. He was a couple of years ahead of us, but it was a very kind of a fetching area.

And by then, in 2000 we got commissioned to design for Rei Kawakubo at Comme Des Garcons in Paris, which was a kind of incredible break. And she’d seen a few things of ours. Someone had proposed us and and we got this, this task, at this incredible store, which, until 2002 stayed completely unchanged, in retail, is very rare in such a strong design, and now they’ve kind of extended it. I haven’t exactly seen what changed or transformed.

L.A. Amazing! What would you say is the most fulfilling, obviously, there are ups and downs of every job, but what would you say is your most fulfilling? And then what would you say yours is your most challenging part of what you do?

A.R. I think the most fulfilling is, is having a vision, working with the client. You have to admit, it’s really important to listen to the client, creating a collaborative vision and delivering that vision as you see it, without compromise. Now I really believe in the collaboration of the client. And I think great projects come out of great clients with great designers working together. I think it’s imperative. So I think Comm (Comme Des Garcons) was an incredible example that really felt like the first models that we created, It was this, total vision. And then the opposite is when the client wants to interfere too much. Now, I’m really interested in the client’s brief, but when the client starts designing in a way, it can become quite counter intuitive, because they have their expertise and we have our expertise. I think great clients don’t over control. They write great briefs, and if we fail to answer that brief, then I have no problems with critique, but I have problems when, when clients suddenly want to choose colours, depending on the client.

So we were half way through Comme Des Garcons Rei Kawakubo called us up and said, it can’t be red. And we say, but Ray, it’s always been red. Are you crazy? I wouldn’t say ‘are you crazy’. We were respectful, we were young, and for three weeks, we just kept justifying our red. And at the end, she said ‘I was joking, I just wanted to see your response if I said it couldn’t be red’, and the commitment that we had to the red is something which you need to be really young and feisty to have. Now maybe I’m too busy and I would move forward. Okay, sure, here’s another, here’s five colors to choose from. I think options are not great. We need to believe in our in our in our work, and go in with the option if you think is right and then. But, you know, we need to represent what the clients want.

You know, when we did Maggie’s, which took eight and a half years, we redesigned it umpteens times to Laura and Marsha’s evolving brief. Well, not their brief wasn’t evolving, but the conversation was evolving. We’ll be discovering more. And for me, that’s really important. We don’t know everything. We’re on a journey, I mean, and as the discussions come about, they change, but there’s a huge difference between the change or the critic. With Marshall and Laura, they don’t tell you how to redesign, they tell you what’s not working. And that’s for me, that’s really, really helpful. We don’t know everything at all. And when we design in these kind of spaces, we go through a lot of research. We interview hundreds of people. In the case, when working with the NHS, 1000s of people. We ask many, many questions, and then we take all that information together and we turn it into a design.

So if someone comes along says, actually, I think that should be this, or that it’s that, but you have not been on our journey. But if you’d say to me, this doesn’t work, because people will feel insecure here, then we’ll go back and we work it and that is the difference.

I really believe in listening to people, as designers it’s our job to make people feel better in the space. If we’re showing an exhibition, I want them to be comfortable looking at the work. If we’re selling clothes, I want them to feel inspired by the clothes. If we’re eating a food, I want to make sure that diaphragm is open and so they can and they’re well lit and they can hear each other talk, so they can, they can, they can enjoy the meal. And if I’m designing a hospital waiting room, you know people are going to have bad news in that waiting room. I want to make sure they feel nurtured and secure.

L.A. What do you think your younger self would make of your career if you could look, if they could look at you now?

A.R. Well, I think they would be surprised by the scale of projects that we’ve done and delivered. They might say, maybe you should have, you should have stayed smaller and nurtured more, more of those original ideas. Have you done that we would reach the breadth of work that we’ve reached, which I think has been very important.

L.A. Did you have any mentors or teachers like from the past that you felt really inspired you?

A.R. I’ve been inspired by so many people I wouldn’t know where to start. Working at Royal College by the students that I work with, people like Shona Kitchen who was my partner, Daniel Charny Mark Bullimore. But then you know, fellow designers Eva Jiřičná was an incredible inspiration. Um, so there’s been, you know, working with Laura Lee has been a huge inspiration over the time, meeting different clients, you know, Zoe, etc, you know, working with Rei Kawakubo. I mean, you know, incredibly working with Heston Blumenthal. So I’ve, you know, been really lucky to work with a lot of very different people, and they’ve all really inspired me.

L.A. And do you think? And I was just going to ask you, sorry, it’s quite a big question, but briefly, about your kind of creative approach to projects?

A.R. I think the beginning part needs to be about research and getting under the skin and asking questions and looking in the eyes of the client, and looking in the environment and talking to the curators or the shopkeepers, you know, or the doctors and the nurses really getting to understand what it is that they require and how it can work. It needs to be. It’s really not about the exterior. It’s about the diagram. It’s about how we can connect inside to outside. It’s about how we can see trees through the window, and we can make sure that no one feels stuck in the corner. You know, it’s important to have multiple views out, or it’s important to make sure all the all the artworks, feel, feel displayed and shown, unless there’s a reason we want to tell a different story. So it’s really understanding the narrative and the story that we’re going to tell, and then as designers, we can start to tell that story. I’m in my our process is very sincere. I don’t believe in the big, quick, giant image. I believe in creating something which really works and lasts, the diagram of circulation, how we move into space, the elimination of corridors. For me, corridors are a waste of time. If you need a circulation space, then put benches in it, so it becomes a street.

L.A. All that sort of depth brings so much more richness to it as well.

A.R. And then being inspired by color, being inspired by nature. You know, with people talk about shooting a lot of color, but we look outside, actually today, there’s a blue sky, and that blue is fantastic. Why can’t I bring that indoors, or bring in the green grass from the outside, or the red tomatoes, you know, I want to bring nature into the space for these giant signatures of colors. I’m sitting around a large red table in a house which is mainly white for very colorful objects. But those objects make us smile, you know. And for me, smiling and laughter is what gets us through the day.

L.A. I am just going to end on one question and that is do you have a favorite portrait from the Legends display and why?

A.R. Well, that is a hard question. I’ve spent a lot of time with a lot of those portraits, and they’re all of, like, quite close friends, so it’s hard to pick one. I really love the Lemn Sissey picture. I love the laughter and the warmth that fits in there, and it really captures the character. And I love the Princess Julia, I feel it’s like it’s such a powerful portrait, the framing, the composition of her hands and her face. She’s also very local character that I know. So it’s always hard to separate the kind of personality from art in that way. But for me, there is a history to that image there’s a traditional that’s been replayed, which I find very beautiful and sensitive.

L.A. Well, thank you so much for talking with me today Ab, it was an absolute pleasure to listen to your insights on the show. And, yeah, thanks, and thanks again. Yeah, I hope you have a lovely day. And yeah, we’ll see you soon.

A.R. Thank you, Lorna, you speak soon.

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Ab Rogers Design – abrogers.com